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Triple Advantage
Triple Advantage

Season 2, Episode 21 · 1 year ago

Bonus Action - Alignment Chart

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this bonus action we give our two cents on the DnD alignment chart. Although we don't agree on everything we think that it's a good discussion to have given the changes Wizards may be implementing in future editions of the game. Is alignment worth having at all? Find out our take in this bonus action! 

Ladies Gentlemen, Non Binary FriendsWelcome back to another triple advantage bonus action. My name isBraden joined with me, as always is Carlos n Jordan from triple advantage,and today we're going to be some talking about something that wepromised to talk about a while back, but have kind of been dragging our feed ona little bit. But that is the aligtment Church H. Jordan, do you want toexplain to our listeners that may not be aware of exactly what the alignmentchart is for Dandivavi sure, so the alignment chart is a way of definingyour character a little bit in terms of how they act in most situations andwhat their general goal will be Um for their actions. So you have h twodifferent portions of that. You have lawful, neutral and chaotic in waysthat you act and then there is um towards a good, a neutral or a act.Evil End Um, so those kind of match up in differentways and then from there you can kind of see how your character reacts. Adifferent situation, so a lawful good character, will follow the law in town,especially when it goes towards the good of the people. A chaotic good person will do what hebelieves is right in any given situation and will not give a secondthought to what the laws are in the town, Um and a neutral person is kind of just following his or one his or her ownrules or the laws of nature or something along those lines that kindof fall outside of Um law and chaos. Yes, perfect. So with that in mind, let's start adiscussion that mayor may not just turn Ito a screaming match between the threeof US wereum. Let's talk about the need for theAlignment Church do either of you have any thoughts youwant to open with. Regarding that. So, as I think I said in our episode,originally Um or actually I think I answered on theInsregram Post, don'tblieve yeah. I believe that it's a good tool Um,especially for new players, to help I get them to understand thattheir character is different from who they are as a person and so we'll acttoward certain goals differently. So if you want to set up your characteras a you know, chaotic evil person, you...

...can look at that and say: Oh yes, I'mchaotic evil. That means I should act in a certain situation in this kind ofway, and it doesn't mean you always have to, but it is a good general toolm that that you can use t to work towards a particular goal that you setfor your character in the beginning, um. I also think it's important for umspecific classes, um like monks and Paladins, and maybe asoldier Um Paladins, especially Um, are kind of beholden to a particularlaw that they set for themselves based upon their oaths that they make and when they're not following thoseoaths. They need to take a good hard look at themselves and see whetherthey're really doing m what they're supposed to be doing as as that Paladin, and maybe that means that they need achange in class or they need to, or maybe the DM you know might have totake away their powers for a while or something like that, just until theycan make that character grow to the point where they can say yeah, I'm backon track here, and this is where they're supposed tobe and yeah. They stumbled a bit F for a while, but now they've learned theirlessons or something like that. That's that's kind of where I standwith it. Okay, if I can, if I can reduce your very eloquent response downto one defendent of answer, Cani then put you down for being for the inclusion of theelignment Shurt, you think yhat. It is a thing that weneed in this game. I think it is a helpful tool and it can be very useful. So, yes, I wouldsay, included okay, Carlos thoughts on this, with the inclusion of the Aliman churtas it stands right now, and it's use from just the data perspective.I don't think most players are following their true allignment thatthey would have chosen on their character sheets and I think, asplayers Um get more accustomed to role playing umtheir characters. That alignment might fluctuate. So it's odd to have it as a written down a statisticon your character sheet. I think it's more so something like just objectively looking at it: thealignment of a character only matters between the DM and that player, largely evil characters can play in acampaign and unless other characters...

...that are lawful good. You know care that evil character is going to bedoing perhaps evil actions Um in the game and that's when we get into like thehairiness of it right, because I, I think from the written point of the alignmentsplayer, characters shouldn't be evil right, like they shouldn't fall underthe evil, um layer of the alignment churt, becausethat's where the baddies in the world lie right, so you're already kind of limiting itto only six possible allignments right. That's what olike at least likethinking about it. Most players are in the neutral land when they're playing thisgame, anyways Ryes, I I will say I'll, just throw this out there. I have played with a Paladin Um thatwas a lawful evil character aw. This means that he follows the law to theletter, and if someone breaks that law it is within his right to perform evilactions such as murdering this person for breaking that law and so a like acapial Lua en type, then yeah exactly so as a Paladin. It is his job to seekout evil and destroy it. So his actions are lawful and evil. But m they stillare almost considered a heroic thing, which is hard to think about, but itstill follows that hero's line of thinking, I guess kind of think tha,lawful, evil that that seems like the extreement of lawful good, where you'refollowing the law to such a letter that anybody that breaks the law is, in onlysome kind of a heathen says, O yourl holding the law. So on on that rightside, the the good side, the neutral and and the evil side, it actually isabout the ends. Um. So are your actions for Um. You knowthe good of people or is it an evil, ish action? Is it a good action or anevil action? And then I guess the other side is like. How are you performingthis action? Is it within the law or is it chaotically Um? It's it's lawful, good is Um. Lawful good would be going aroundstopping bad people, but you would be capturing them or you would be ensuringthat the proper authorities are notified and they are brought tojustice and that kind of thing lafful evil. You can take things into your ownhands and...

...say that you're doing things for thefor the greater good um by destroying evil, so your focus isn'treally on the good. It's on the destroying evil part right right. It's it's a weird. It islike it's a hard line to like differantiate between just because of that, because it is ahard line that it's kind of Fuzzy, um interpretations, cansoy between players.It doesn't make for a good rule and that's why, like? I think that in likeagain like, I think that the alignment ture is great for identifying. You know evil beings in the world for sure right,like if you're telling a player, this character is evil, it kind of gives them that. Well, I'mthe hero of the story. Therefore, I must stop this evil and there you haveyour you know you have your story, drive for whatever quest campaign thatyou're running mm Um, but outside of that you know, we've had like Rinsetright like we've had things were in the game, I think Um, the theamendments that are being made right now with regards to like, for example,orks only being evil right. That's where you start getting into the limiting aspects of the alignment chartand why it's possibly going to be washed away in, like the sixth editionUm Books, at least in my opinion, because, like yeah sure you can havetruly evil monsters right, like that's easy to conceptualize righ like aterask drops down, destroys everything go to sleep. I yeah, you know it's athing. You need to stop, but you're getting into like Um, the human oids and other. You know youwant to get into a creative space with vampires, and do you want to get into acreative space with orks, for example, or Ogres right? I, like I, was justrewatching Schrek the other day and there's Shrek Fall into a purely evilcharacter. So do I want to like run an or campaign,or you know an ogre campaign n an like. Would Ihave an ogre that's being followed around by a donkey in a game. Thatsounds really funny, but I don't know if that would be like you know, an evilcharacter. So that's where, like the limitingaspects of you, know, sticking like it's, it's like the the limitationsthat you know. If you stick true to the alignment charts all of a sudden a lotof creatures. You know you can't possibly have these fun interactionswith Um. But as soon as I get to that point Irealize well, then I can just throw it all out o the window. It doesn't reallymatter. Ri like and...

...well make you know, you'll have your like. You can have a linments per serly. You can have evil good characters without you know being locked onto one,because you could have a day where an NPC is having a ship morning. You knowand all of a sudden, they're kicking you know whatever you know the they're kickingpuppies down the street because they had a pet, a and yeah that's an evilaction right, but right not condoning that in any means in the real world bythe way purely hypothetical scenario here. But you know it's so weird to belocked into being lawful, good right, like maybe you have a palled and thitslawful, good all the time, but then, like one moment, they like stealsomething because they need to, and that creates a huge conflict in thegame, if you're being truly like pure about the alignment, cart versus beinglike yeah you're, like mostly lawful, all the time right like, but they have moments where they canstep away from being. They have moments of chaos, they have moments of whatever,and your characters will nay hind these little corners that they'll end upplaying in anyways, but as soon as you put a all right. Well, therefore,you're lawful, good, your character, migt go a lot. I don't want to belocked in this corner. Right like I want to have this freedom to play andit might actually like hinder Um the R P elements of the game. If you'rejust constantly me like well, just remember, you said you were lawful,good or hey. Just remember you said you were chaotic, neutual therefor. Youhave to be a whack job everywhere. Rigt like it's yeah, it's odd that it's arequirement if you're just going TA, throw it out the window as soon as youstart playing anyways and therefore I don't think that it should be. You knowit shouldn't have, as I don't think it should go away. Like you said it's agood barometer in a sensin rate, but I don't think it needs to be. You knowpart of the character creation process and I don't think it needs to be partof the Um gameplay constant reminder you know, because if you want to playclar all of a sudden, I have to play this devout being and be good. If I want to be acleric right well, that seems like a super like type castrole already. If I want to play something slightly different. Well,then, I should play Clare Ree, you know what I mean yeah, I do' know allobrated to make hispoints before I refute you all we gettng intoitwo thoughts. The firstis that I completely agree with Carlos in the idea that it should be used, asI I'm not advocating, for the complete removal of the Alignment Church.

I think it's a useful tool, especiallyfor a reference of Kindof like where you landon a spectrum, but I don't think it should be a playerstat like think it should be included up there with, like your level, youryour race, your class and your alignment. I don't like that. Um Iheard I I'm going to have to find a source for this, but I heard somebodytalking about how it shouldn't be that your choice on the alignment chartreflects indicates what your action should be.It should be that your actions indicate what your choice on the Aliment CHURCshould be. So your your place on the alignment chart is a reflection of how you're playing yourcharacter. It's not that you pick this aen Yu have to play your character.Like you picked out on the end- and I like that way of doing it much better,I also think that it's so reductionist as a tool, ththe spectrum of player actions coversway more than these nine boxes that you're fitting into and the factis, you're- probably going to fit it into three or four of them, based onthe actions that you take over the course of a campaign. MPOCESSIONAL yeah,exactly like, like people in the real world are complex and they build theirD and d characters a lot of the time to be complex as well. So I don't like, Iwould be like a Carlos, like here's a chartwhich one of these are you as a person which one of these nine thingsindicates what you are well more like what ew lie, Oday 'cause it could evenlike what would you be comfortable playing like El? I don't know if Iwould be comfortable like all Wa like do. I have to go o thea right now thatI don't like signing myself up for this one way, you're playing for the rest ofthe campaign. It's just it. It takes away in my mind when you play it inthat manner where it's like a stat that you have to by it takes away a lot ofplayer agency and situations. No, I think that we do have to make a pointthat this is largely the case for newer players, more so than more experiencedplayers, because in your campaign, for example, for for the draing Queen, I'mplaying a good alligned character who, like I've, I've made the point a coupleof times to say, like I'm, only knocking out these creatures yelikeevery time I'm fighting, I I just knocke them out and that's because I've kind of basedthe character a little bit like I kindo want to play it like the Jackie Chan, combat scenes or Ighand like he in those movies, they never really kill anybody. So now I have killed people in the game aswell and killed beings right like when we slade the Dragon is the Dragon, apurely evil creature that we needed to kill. Could we have talked it out? Does myplayer alignment mean that if I'm a...

...good character, I should be looking forencounters and approach them on a more social perspective versus a combatperspective? I think that that's a lot of hard and very deep sort of decisionsthat a newer player probably won't seeze, and I the players aren't usingit and they're not seeing it. Then it doesn't exist in my eyes an tigain OCA for Thordon refuter points, please,my third okay, so Bra Yeu earlier said, you like the idea of the actions kindof determining your alignment everses the other way around. Yes right, so mypoint is: Have you made actions in the past whenyou're creating a character? What have those actions been in yourback story in general? Then? Could you potentially create an alignment basedon the actions that you think your character has mate absolutely, but that also goes back tomy point about it being a static document, like is every single actionTho ever made going to fall into one of those boxes as a character, backfree,absolutely not right. So, okay! Now now is the alignment static. I don't. Idon't think that the alignments are static. I think that m people canchange, especially in this game, and so I Ikinda like thinking of if you played the game infamous orsomething along those lines where you can choose good or evil actions orsomething in between, then you can start to do that, and maybe eventually,if you've made too many choices that were clearly evil, as opposed to youknow clearly good or kind of in between, then maybe your character is no longerconsidered good, Carlos. With regards to that Dragon, it's not clearly anevil action or clearly a good action. So I wouldn't say that that kind of youknow would affect Tha your alignment. Nor would I say that youwould have to follow something unless you put that restriction on yourself Al Right Right, so we're getting down to the alignment islargely important if the Ou as a player think it's port Yean, but also it isextremely important for Paladins and Clerx, and with regards to your pointearlier, there are Paladins of the oath of vengeance or of the oath of conquestor there's clerics of the war domain or of the tricks tor domain. If you wantto be chaotic M- and you know you can yeah- maybe it's pigeting pigeonholding yourself kind of into those kind of...

...h alignments. It doesn't mean that youhave to play that way. A life cleric can still be chaotic to a certain point.He can just choose. Oh well, I I'm just going to go around healing everybody.Indiscriminate of you know wh, whether they're on my side or not, maybe that'smore of his chaotic side, and it is a good action. And so you know, the godsare okay with that kind of action, because it's healing and it doesn'tmatter what side is for or whatever Um r. You know there there's like all sortsof ways that you can kind of play off your alignment, but I just think I just think by natureof it, though, like the alignment statistic in your character has littleto now effect to the actual game, and I e we can get into like how much of theallinement youare actually following, but like just a loose thought here. Ithink that maybe, if we were to get rid of the alignments, for example, you could replace it with a some sortof robust reputation system. That actually has you know a driving element within the game.Mechanic itself ther the allioments do right, because you could start yourcharacters as a clean slate and sure you can perform actions like like,destroy and kill half of a village and guess what that's going to ruin yourreputation to them and to them you're, going to be an evil character and tothem you're going to be somebody WHO's. A dangerous person right, whereas beingan evil character. You know you can still do that and have a goodreputation and a good allignment with another Um group that might thinkyou're the best and by nature it really the being evil, then doesn't reallymatter it's how you're perceived and since there's no real mechanic tying inalignment to you know game interactions. I don't think it's very effective. So that's where I'm think like thealigment chart is meant to be a personal thing, though, like it's notmeant to be like okay, you know, like everyone else, can see that they are aevil character. You know, yes, they can like evil characters can be perceivedin all sorts of ways. You know like just because you're you have a villaincharacter that you've created doesn't mean that they're going to be going outthere doing all these evil actions. In fact, I think some of the best villainsare the ones who go and make other people do those evil actions for them,and they look like they're the good guy on the outside, but theyre they're,clear intentions or their goals, their their moral like compass is pointingthem in a particular direction. How they go about doing those differentactions and things like that is up to them, but like they, they might bepointed in a particular direction and...

...then along the lines of alignmentmattering mechanically it it does when it comes to a life cleric who startsrefusing to healing, to heal people or start killing people and and alsorefusing to heal anyone, or you know, help people and that kind of thingyou'r your life cleric. If they're, not, you know doing what the Gods who givethem their power, you know I is, you know meant to do, then. Why wouldthat God continue to give them that power? What like, why right like? If,if the gods, on the other hand, have no say in anything, you know as as part ofyour dindy world, then yeah sure, like your life, clert is just getting powerfrom somewhere else and they're. You know able to use this, this particularability and it's innate to them or something. Then you can play it off.However, you want, but in terms of most und campaigns, they have the gods thathave the you know the different deties that are able to give people power, andso, when you make a pact with that, that being you need to fall in line toa certain extent with what they would want you to do so m. If you decide thatyou want to follow an evil, ish Um, you know warlike patron kind of person likea fiender or an ar demon, or something like that and you've made a pack withthem. They will hold you to certain actions and they will say you need todo these things for me. Otherwise, I will take your powers away or likethere's no reason for me to give you these abilities. If all you're going todo is work against me, the whole time, it doesn't make sense right right, it'sSuainly, a communication that s e thing that you have to have with your playersright, because if a player say something like Hey, I'ma cleric, and I want to attack this creature, that's helpless and you gowell. You know all of a sudden, your radiant h spells won't work and the BER whe. What do you mean like?I can not askink. That t at will happen like instantaneously. Obviously, likeit's not like a one and done thing, humans are known to make mistakes, andI think the like the the gods and the and the deities understand that thatthey are human and they're going to make mistakes and that they're notgoing to always do exactly what they want. Wer Much more so talking aboutthe relationship between DM and player here, right yeah, so it involves like again you as a DM. Are you driving therules for that? Or are you letting players play things like clerics andPaladins and not necessarily follow an oath or not necessarily follow orwhatever, because new player wants to get o table, they want they chosencleric and they attack people mhm and...

Um. You say: Well, none of your spellsare working now, but you're still a Clairik, but none ofyour smellswork until you act accordingly to a clerk might create a little bit of attentionbetween the player and right. Why can't I probade Mi glass that I chose justbecause of the RAG, so obviously you have to communicate in some way withthe players like you, don't just go and take away their powers for no reasonlike there. It needs to be like clearly stated, and maybe you talk aut talkabout it with them ahead of time or M, as they perform different actions thatyou think. Okay, Hey you've done like these three actions and I'm thinkingyou might be starting to like change as a character which is totally fine. Howcan we like change your character now to match something else, so maybeyou're no longer a life cleric? Maybe now you become a war cleric and nowyou're going to follow. You know a different God. Maybe you have to makethat different pacts? You know that changes. You know your yourcharacter mechanically, but it's based upon the role playing that you've doneright and so um iit depends on the players that you'rewith, like. Maybe your players are more like the Midmaxi type characters? Whojust are people who want to H, create you know a character that has these abilities,this ability, thisability this billy disability and then is able to maximizetheir efforts. That way, if that's the case, you should know that ahead oftime for sure, and then you can work with them thatway, Um and and figuredit out with them individually, but but on a generalbasis. At least this is the way that I would run. My campaigns is, I wouldhave palens and the clerics and the warlocks kind of understand that theyhave made some sort of a pact or an oath or um something along those lines. There arerules that they have to follow. Um Too, like most like most of the time. Likethey can't continue to do C, Cla, clearly evil actions or clearly goodactions, if you're going the other way that would, you know, interfere withyour ability to use these powers and I think that again I'll receivethat largely the alignment table and concerning issues around. It arepredominantly only issues with low level characters and new players,because you know damming after a while. You understand that yes, warlocks madea pact and do I role play that packd or am I just playing a spellcaster? That'sa little edgy yeah because, like at the end of theday, you can play warlock and b. You know just thet smelcaster with...

...spell lots, are a little bit morelimited. You know and ye like if you're, not adding thoseaspects of like yeah, you have this evil demon constantly clawing at youfor freedom, then you're just playing a sorcer congrets, but you to was warluck, so it gets into like how comfortable youare a role playing and whatnot and, like I said, redlic, it's easier toplay truly good characters, trulhy, evil characters. Once you know a littlebit more about the mechanics of the game, but it should it be part of, like you knowyou starting out, play and like making these choices that affect the longevityof your character and how you're going to be running them. The first time thatyou're, you know, writing on a character, sheetit's a little daunting,and it's it's not as easy just to say likeyeah, I'm like for sure, I'm a good character. I I want to be a hero. Well,what does that mean now Igt, like you, can't have these gray areas of actionand then again we're going back O if you're washing it away? Well, why is itwhy? Why is why Don t? I have to write it down on my character, sheep, Imcdonals and that's why I said it's a relationhip between the DM and the PC,a tatlane and a general. I would say back story and moral compass.Potentially it's it's a compass more so than it is a Um. You know here's here's,the line, don't cross it kind of thing like here's, your box you're onlyallowed to be in here. No it it's like it's this compass. That kind of likegoes back and forth all the time, ru yeah for to kind of just put one last pointin like for me: It's all about form. It comes down to enforcibility, likeyou have this, especially when you're putting that right up next to race,class and name. It looks like it's going to be an important stat having Tistelamater, but in reality, ifwe're in a fight and my fighter goes, I cast eldridge blast and I go what Di said. Doesn't it say fighter on yoursheet? He goes yeah, but I want to cast elters blost, I'm going to be like pickup your sword and go hit that din like tt'sthat's the end of that discussion.There's there's accountability there. If he goes and he goes, I want to kill thisguy and I go. Doesn't it say neutral, goodon your sheet and he goes yeah. My response is probably a'll right themjust cheking. It's it's one of those things whereit's like: There's no mechanical penalty,...

...mechanical way of enforcing to acertain extent, and I hear what you're saying about the Paladin, but I feellike you could easily like if the Palodan walks up n's like I'm, going tomurder wit this person, it's not going to be like well, no, your lawfull gi,he'll be like well know, Youre, palated right. It's not necessarily. Thealignment chart isn't necessarily the ex factor in that decision. No, as to as to the fact that yeah,there probably would be some divine repercussions for that character, butit doesn't come from the alimenture to come from the fact that he's a PaletanPaladin dedicated to a certain God yeah. I mean counterpoint here with regards to name, if a character,if a person were to come up to you and say by the way, I'm going to change myname now, would you I would just I would say thesame thing as you did with the alignment stuff. What Yeah Shar goahead? You can change your name and then in game your name gets changed and you know people might start callingyou the other name by accident or something like that and then you'd say.Oh No. I've changed my name now so this and you know that's the thing thathappens in real life too people change their names. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that there would actually haveto be like a like a mention of that in Gameoh. Bythe way everybody I'm changing. My name too, like an any character, not anexplanation, but just right O of the way. My name is now yeah. Yeah, likeyou D, you don't just like walk in and be like. Oh Si, Thewaya all players inthe game. Ah Erik is now Jason and Jacon has never been Eric. It's alwaysbeen Jason Right exactly so. Your alignment chart is Kindof the same waylike your alimant Cha. You know it tells you where you've been and it canchange as you go forward. I I I I don't know if it's a one to onecomparison, I think players are a lot more likely to change their alignmentsthan they ever change, their name. Sure, oh for sure, for sure it's it'snot, but it is like it's also up there on the top, and you know they kinda.Just I throw it out there airpoint, but Ithink that we've been talking about this for probably way too long, Alf listeners out there. What do you think?Do you use the alignment chark? Do you think it's necessary? Do you agree withany of our points? Throu all of our points or what are you thinkin o knowany counselors sure what Jordan said. Let us knowadriralcitys society on Instryam well, catch you next to.

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